Fair Issues 95: A Journey across the “narrow neck”

12 thoughts on “Fair Issues 95: A Journey across the “narrow neck””

1. Do members of LDS still belong to mason groups Ned Scarisbrick has indicated on the order of his eminent description. If yes which member of the first presidency or of the quorum of the twelve is a mason?

2. Yes there are many members of the Church who as Masons but I do not know of any who are in the first presidency or the twelve.
   If you have a specific concern about Masonry or it’s relationship with the early Church I would be happy to address any concerns you have.

   -Ned Scarisbrick

3. the narrow neck is the narrow strip of land between the sea east–Lake Erie and the sea west–lake Ontario–which you can also walk from the sea east to the sea west by walking a day and a half across that narrow strip of land–that is the great lakes–

4. @R J So.. Hagoth built his ship where? and it sailed North on Lake Ontario to where? Oh wait… Lake Ontario runs east and west.. not North and South. They could not sail North. Nope.. can’t be the right sea!! How come you didn’t see that?

5. MesoAmerica has a BIG problem… they have a North Sea and a South Sea… but no East and West Sea. And the so called “narrow neck” does not run north and south.. but runs east and west. Nope.. this can’t be the right place!!

   Unless…. you are going to tell me that North is East.. and South is West. Is that what your going to do?

6. These comments that are against the mesoamerica, read sorensons works and he answers these “challenges” quite plausably. There are other authors too who have found quite simple and working explanation for the sea west and east and why the north and south sea is kot a problem. You guys just need to do some reading and be willing to widen your horizon to more than just the assumptions of the past.

7. Hagoth built his ship in the sea west–lake Erie–and sailed into large bodies of water–lake Huron–lake–lake Michigan–lake Superior –take a look at the maps of the great lakes area and you will see–

8. RJ: If Lake Erie is the sea west, please tell me which body of water is the sea south (Helaman 3:8).

9. Well, here is what a revelation from the Lord said about the “East Sea”.
   “The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea, to the Rocky mountains.” Joseph Smith as recorded by Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball, George A. Smith, Levi Hancock, Moses Martin, and Reuben McBride. Sorensen and others can argue if they wish, but Joseph saw a vision and in that vision he saw “Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea”. Hill Cumorah is very near Lake Erie.

10. Maury: Advocates for the Heartland Geography (which, presumably, includes yourself) rely very heavily on the Zelph story, but they give it unwarranted weight in comparison to other pieces of evidence.

    When evaluating statements about Book of Mormon geography, we should prioritize them in this order:

    1. What the Book of Mormon itself says about its own geography.
    2. Canonized revelations of Joseph Smith.
    3. Uncanonized statements written by Joseph himself.
    4. Secondhand contemporary reports of comments Joseph made.
    5. Secondhand late reports of comments Joseph made.

    The Zelph story falls squarely in the fourth and fifth categories, which means we should apply lesser weight to it than all the other statements found within the Book of Mormon or made by Joseph himself.

    Even worse, there are a number of significant problems with the quote you provided: It was stitched together from several separate statements, and went through a series of editors who both removed and reinstated various aspects of the quote, including the phrase “hill Cumorah.”

    The most important study of the Zelph incident was done by Kenneth W. Godfrey (see “What Is the Significance of Zelph in the Study of Book of Mormon Geography?“, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 8/2 (1999): 70–79, 88). Godfrey wrote:

    If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion’s Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion’s Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation. Furthermore, readers would be told that most sources agree that Zelph was a white Lamanite who fought under a leader named Onandagus (variously spelled). Beyond that, what Joseph said to his men is not entirely clear, judging by the variations in the available sources. (p. 75.)

    I strongly recommend you read Godfrey’s study and grasp the importance of his research and conclusions.

11. Brother Scarisbrick, I am the current Worshipful Master of Kaibab Lodge #25 Free and Accepted Masons of Utah. I will be pleased to meet you when we test each other. I also am the Friendship Branch High Priest’s Group Leader in the Salt Lake Central Stake. I also have an unswerving testimony that President Monson is our living prophet for this current time. If there are any questions that I can honorably answer I also would be happy to do so!

12. I am a past master of Oriental lodge #60 A.F. & A.M. of Idaho 2001. I would think that the tylers oath might have some differences between Utah and Idaho work but we could still meet on the level and part on the square. 🙂

    I am also one of many members of the Church along with being Masons who see no conflict with the craft and the Church.

    You may want to consider my podcast about Masonry

    http://blog.fairlatterdaysaints.org/2013/07/19/4th_watch_9secret-combinations-the-masonic-mormon-connection/

    It is well my brother,

    -Ned Scarisbrick, PM

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