April 9, 2026

4 thoughts on “Letter For My Wife Rebuttal, Part 5: The Early Church – The Translation [A]

  1. I find it interesting that the actual quotes from Joseph and Oliver stating that they translated the entire Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim is not mentioned or highlighted. Why was that?

    In 1838, Joseph Smith simply stated, “I obtained [the plates], and the Urim and Thummim with them; by the means of which, I translated the plates; and thus came the Book of Mormon.”

    I will continue to believe Joseph and Oliver over two people who left the church and lacks the proper historical credibility.

  2. Michael, it was because, as stated in the post, “Urim and Thummim” is vague and could mean either the Nephite interpreters or Joseph’s personal seer stones. The early Saints interchangeably used the term to mean any kind of seer stone, making it unclear which stone(s) was being referenced in which account.

    Saying that the other accounts lack historical credibility is not an accurate statement when there are so very many of them from so many witnesses. The evidence is strong and the historical record is pretty clear. The Church itself agrees that Joseph did indeed use his personal stone during the translation process.

  3. Most often, historical commentators and analysts work forwards to backwards in order to establish a process. If this process doesn’t work, then the result must be wrong. Sometimes, it is better to go from back to front. So we can then argue, there is a Book of Mormon, ergo, the process however unclear must be accurate.

    The use of a Urim and Thummim is well documented historically but what they were is open to conjecture. They could well have been sticks or stones. I am grateful you didn’t refer to the ‘spectacles’ approach that I have read about in the past. I think Phelps referred to them.

    Joseph’s actual use of the stone, I feel is open to conjecture. Again, whether the light, the letter or some other form specifically came from the stone itself is eminently unclear from Joseph’s narrative and let’s face it, his narrative is the only valid one. This again renders the front to back approach unhelpful.

    Thank you for your posts. They make for useful insights.

  4. I am glad you included Washington Crossing the Delaware, as that is a comparison I have used from time to time of a famous and highly-regarded painting that contains many inaccuracies.

    I think the problem with artwork occurs when we expect a painting to serve as proxy for a live photograph of an event when, in fact (as you state), it is an interpretive piece that usually represents a combination of ideas in one image.

    It is difficult to look at certain art and not think it is supposed to represent an actual moment in time, but artists do not work that way. Every element of the artwork depicting Joseph translating the Book of Mormon occurred at some point in time, just never all together at once. The art tries to represent a full story with one image, and unless several asynchronous liberties are taken, it is impossible to so.

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